SARAH MCCAMMON, HOST:
Since the first sound film came out, Hollywood musicals have been an enduring movie genre and have given us some of our most iconic movie moments. Think Gene Kelly dancing in "Singing (ph) In The Rain"...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SINGIN' IN THE RAIN")
GENE KELLY: (As Don Lockwood, singing) Just singin' in the rain.
MCCAMMON: Or Judy Garland waking up in a magical land in "The Wizard Of Oz."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WE'RE OFF TO SEE THE WIZARD")
JUDY GARLAND AND RAY BOLGER: (As Dorothy and The Scarecrow, singing) We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful Wizard of Oz. We hear he is a whiz of a wiz if ever a wiz there was. If ever, oh ever a wiz there was...
MCCAMMON: And even as the movie musical has had its ups and downs since the heyday of the 1950s and '60s, it's still possible for them to capture the imagination of the public.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DEFYING GRAVITY")
CYNTHIA ERIVO: (As Elphaba, singing) Tell them how I'm defying gravity. Promise I'll be...
MCCAMMON: Many movie fans love a good musical, while others may find them just a bit corny. Well, we have two such opposing viewpoints here in studio - NPR editor Barrie Hardymon, a confessed musical fanatic.
BARRIE HARDYMON, BYLINE: Correct.
MCCAMMON: Hello.
HARDYMON: Hello.
MCCAMMON: And Marc Rivers, a producer on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED and, I don't know, a skeptic...
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Not so much a fanatic.
MCCAMMON: ...Agnostic? All viewpoints welcome here. Barrie, I'm going to start with you, though.
HARDYMON: Yes.
MCCAMMON: So you agree with this description, musical fanatic, fair?
HARDYMON: Absolutely. And I will say, you know, I am a theater kid. I'm a - I was a musician. Like, you know, I was already attached to the genre before I ever saw it on the big screen. So, for me, give me a musical. If you guys would like to start performing a musical, I would be in right now.
RIVERS: No thank you.
HARDYMON: We can sing the rest of this.
MCCAMMON: The theater kid to public radio pipeline, you know?
HARDYMON: Yeah. It's strong, so darn (ph) strong.
MCCAMMON: Yeah. What about you, Marc? Why not such a fan?
RIVERS: Yeah. You know, I mean, I grew up on more kind of stereotypically, I guess, boy content like "Star Wars," "The Matrix," shoot-'em-ups (ph). You know, in my maturity, I now realize...
HARDYMON: Which are all operas.
RIVERS: ..."Star Wars" is as goofy as a musical.
MCCAMMON: Yeah.
RIVERS: But, you know, I just found something so kind of ridiculous about it. Like, why are you guys all of a sudden breaking into song? It felt like the music almost removed the stakes from the story. Like, even with something like "The Sound Of Music" where there are literal Nazis, the sheer do re mi of it all...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DO RE MI")
JULIE ANDREWS: (As Maria, singing) Do re mi.
CHARMIAN CARR, HEATHER MENZIES, NICHOLAS HAMMOND, DUANE CHASE, ANGELA CARTWRIGHT, DEBBIE TURNER AND KYM KARATH: (As Liesl, Louisa, Friedrich, Kurt, Brigitta, Marta and Gretl von Trapp, singing) Do re mi.
RIVERS: ...Just sapped whatever stakes there are. And also, if you look at some of these iconic movies, they're just so just, you know, lily white, the ensembles and worlds. And, you know, I'm just thinking, well, why are these white people so happy, singing like this?
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: Like, there are people rioting in the streets outside. You shouldn't be this happy.
HARDYMON: (Laughter) Fair question, right? Like...
RIVERS: So I just...
HARDYMON: No one's crying for you, Evita.
RIVERS: Right. Like, you shouldn't be singing about Oliver at a time like this. Like...
MCCAMMON: You know, I hear you. Like, it is a lot of sort of emotional whiplash sometimes from one moment to the next. And at the same time, the idea, when you think about it too long - about bursting into song - is a little weird. I'm with you, Marc. I grew up in a very strict family where, like, a lot of movies, a lot of entertainment was off-limits. But these sort of wholesome and yes, admittedly, lily white 'cause of the era when they were made - but some of these musicals, you know, from that era, like "Sound Of Music" and "Wizard Of Oz," were seen as, like, wholesome and safe entertainment. You know, nobody was swearing. There was not really any real violence, although maybe the threat of it, definitely not nudity. And so, like, this was, like, a safe thing that I could watch. And I think it was also a safe space to sort of explore a range of emotions, you know, and to sort of feel moved about things that you might not even as a kid understand.
HARDYMON: Yeah.
RIVERS: And this reminds me of your - you choose points about kind of just expressive emotion. It reminds me of this English critic Richard Dyers (ph) who said that the movie musical, at least in American cinema was kind of the fullst expression of, like, utopia - of utopian ideals. And you think about, you know, we're solving problems through music. We're solving problems through this idealized version of expression. And it's also the sense of communal problem solving, right? Like, it's not just one person.
HARDYMON: Let's put on a show.
RIVERS: We're all breaking into a song. We're all coming together in this moment. And there is something utopian about that, but it's often a false utopia.
HARDYMON: What you're talking about - utopia - is, like, quite a stylized place to be, right?
RIVERS: Right.
HARDYMON: And that's when musicals really succeed...
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: ...Is when you are in a fantasy, myth...
RIVERS: Not quite real.
HARDYMON: ...Satire sometimes, like, I just - I think a dreamlike set. I mean, "Chicago"...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CELL BLOCK TANGO")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #1: (As characters, singing) He had it coming. He had it coming. He only had himself to blame. If you'd have been there...
HARDYMON: ...This is like a totally, like, a vaudeville kind of, you know, "Singin' In The Rain," like, you know...
RIVERS: Absolutely.
HARDYMON: ...Hollywood, this sort of joyful place where we can, you know, show artifice, like...
RIVERS: Yeah.
MCCAMMON: And even taking these weighty themes sometimes, like "Chicago"...
HARDYMON: Yes. Yeah.
MCCAMMON: ...And dealing with them in, like, an accessible and almost innocent-sounding way.
HARDYMON: Yeah.
RIVERS: Right.
MCCAMMON: So I have to ask you, Marc, I mean, are there any musicals that you are a fan of?
RIVERS: So there are a couple, and I think the ones that I have taken to kind of deviate a little bit from this kind of wholesome vibe or wholesome kind of world. I'm thinking about "Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber Of Fleet Street."
HARDYMON: Well, now you're talking about Stephen Sondheim, so...
RIVERS: Stephen's one of our great artists of the 20th century...
HARDYMON: Where I feel like you and I can really find...
RIVERS: Yeah. This is where we connect.
HARDYMON: We vibe.
RIVERS: You know, this is - you know, this is about a kind of demented serial killer in England. But the music has such tonal range, you know? And in this version I'm thinking of from 2007, staring Johnny Depp and Helena Bonham Carter, you know, Johnny Depp brings this almost kind of punk rock energy to this movie.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EPIPHANY")
JOHNNY DEPP: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) All right. You sir, how about a shave? Come and visit your good friend Sweeney.
RIVERS: It's a great tonal range of this film, but it is dark. It is brooding. You know, it does not...
HARDYMON: Bloody as hell.
RIVERS: Bloody - yeah, bloody as all hell. It does not have a happy ending. But it's just wonderful sets, great acting, and there's a great variety of music in that film. Another one I think of is "West Side Story."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "JET SONG")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, snapping fingers)
RIVERS: I'll take both. I'll take the one from the '60s and also Steven Spielberg's adaptation.
HARDYMON: They're both correct.
MCCAMMON: The remake, yeah.
RIVERS: Both of those films are about irreconcilable differences among class and race. You know, they're about, like, real issues. But they also embody what you're talking about, Barrie and Sarah, just, like, expressing oneself fully, you know, through song.
MCCAMMON: Yeah.
RIVERS: And it's no wonder that a song like "Somewhere," you know, becomes, like, an anthem.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SOMEWHERE")
MARNI NIXON AND JIMMY BRYANT: (As Maria and Tony, singing) There's a place for us, a time and place for us...
RIVERS: It can encompass and contain so many kind of feelings...
HARDYMON: That's right.
RIVERS: ...And life experiences.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SOMEWHERE")
NIXON AND BRYANT: (As Maria and Tony, singing) Somehow, someday...
RIVERS: "West Side Story" and "Sweeney Todd" - I could watch that any time.
HARDYMON: Same. I'll be there.
MCCAMMON: Barrie, I know you're a musical lover, but, like, what are your favorite favorites if you had to - you know, if you were...
HARDYMON: (Laughter).
RIVERS: We're going to be here all day...
MCCAMMON: If you were stranded..
RIVERS: ...Hearing Barrie's favorites (ph).
MCCAMMON: If you were stranded in (inaudible).
HARDYMON: Yeah, if you guys want to go out and get something to eat while I'd just like to list them?
RIVERS: (Laughter).
HARDYMON: No. I - like you, Sarah, I was also raised on the - kind of the golden era movie musicals. And for me, "Gigi," which, guys, has aged so badly. I totally get it.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GIGI")
LOUIS JOURDAN: (As Gaston Lachaille) Gigi, am I a fool without a mind? Or have I merely been too blind to realize?
HARDYMON: But I want to be...
MCCAMMON: So many things have.
HARDYMON: I want to - but I want to be honest about it because it's such a good example of why musicals can work. First of all, the music is just fabulous.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE NIGHT THEY INVENTED CHAMPAGNE")
HERMIONE GINGOLD: (As Madame Alvarez) Stop it.
LESLIE CARON: (As Gigi, singing) The night they invented champagne - it's plain as it can be they thought of you and me. The night they invented champagne, they absolutely knew...
HARDYMON: And because the music is so good, it belies the fact that this is a young woman who they are essentially selling into...
RIVERS: It's great smokescreen.
HARDYMON: ...To be a courtesan.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: So that's like, one, but the other thing - like, what I really, really love is a political musical. I want to be inspired and I want revolution. I will say that I think that the "Kiss Of The Spider Woman," which came out this year, is very, very successful in what it sets out to do.
RIVERS: I missed this one.
MCCAMMON: Yeah, tell us about it.
RIVERS: With Jennifer Lopez - that's right.
HARDYMON: I think this one's made for you. Yes, it is with Jennifer Lopez...
RIVERS: OK. I do love J.Lo.
HARDYMON: ...Who is like - she's turned up to 11, you know? She gets to be a diva.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN")
JENNIFER LOPEZ: (As The Spider Woman, singing) Come and find me. Hear my song. Let me hold you.
HARDYMON: Basically about Argentinian revolutionaries in jail. It seems like it would be not so glamorous, but this is where the music, which is not actually even - like, I love the music. I don't think it's the - it's certainly not Sondheim. But it's - it does such a good job of helping you be in the position of the prisoners and be beyond the prison itself, right?
MCCAMMON: Yeah.
HARDYMON: As they sort of - as they - you know, Jennifer Lopez plays this diva, who they're thinking about in this movie. Anyway, for me, that kind of political movie that is both about emotions but is also, like, a little bit grittier - like, give me some grit - I really do love that. That's why I don't mind a little blood.
RIVERS: (Laughter).
HARDYMON: That, for me, is where it really gets successful.
MCCAMMON: That was NPR's Marc Rivers and Barrie Hardymon. Good to have you both here.
HARDYMON: Thanks.
RIVERS: You're welcome.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Five, six, seven, eight. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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