STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Our White House correspondent Tamara Keith made an observation over the weekend. The president campaigned in 2024 while promising retribution for his enemies. And then, when criticized, he clarified that retribution just meant his success. Once inaugurated, Tam observes, Trump's retribution turned out to mean retribution.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: So now, as the chief law enforcement officer in our country, I will insist upon and demand full and complete accountability for the wrongs and abuses that have occurred.
INSKEEP: That's Trump speaking earlier this year. Now, we just heard of investigations of multiple Trump critics, including John Bolton. Over the weekend, former New Jersey governor Chris Christie commented on ABC about the president's use of the Justice Department. And afterward, Trump said on social media that perhaps we should start investigating Chris Christie.
We have Ty Cobb on the line. He was a White House attorney in Trump's first term, managing the White House response to special counsel Robert Mueller's probe into allegations of Russian election interference. Mr. Cobb, welcome to the program.
TY COBB: Thank you very much, Steve.
INSKEEP: What did you think about when you heard of the FBI's search of John Bolton's house and office?
COBB: Well, I went down and locked my door.
INSKEEP: (Laughter) Well, OK. So you're ready for a knock. What's - I think you're saying that it seems like even somebody who worked for the president is not safe in this situation.
COBB: I think anybody that's critical of the president, you know, has justifiable paranoia at this stage of the game. But, you know, I think it's important on the Bolton thing to not overreact. There is certainly, you know, retribution involved. There's certainly an abandonment of traditional norms at the Justice Department in going back and doing this. Typically, in a situation where somebody has written a book that gets close to the line or goes over the line on classified information, you know, there are - there's anxiety. There's name-calling. There's a bunch of bad press. But it's rare, if ever, that anybody gets prosecuted under those circumstances because the prereview process is heavily weighted against classified information...
INSKEEP: Right.
COBB: ...Getting out. And in Bolton's situation, he did submit his manuscript for review. They didn't want to publish it, so he had to sue to enforce the process. And ultimately, the release of his book was authorized by a federal court.
INSKEEP: Now, you're giving us a lot of background here. Bolton did write a very critical memoir. I suppose, to be fair, we don't know what the FBI found or might find. We might find that there was a classified document or something in there, but it sounds like - that you're skeptical of that possibility.
COBB: Well, I do think it's certainly possible that they'll find documents that they insist are classified. You know, whether in fact at this stage of the game that classification is real or not would have to be litigated. But I think in the Bolton situation, you know, you do have a federal judge finding, in his circumstances, that he likely did disclose classified information. That's part of the public record. So there must have been enough in the affidavit, you know, seeking the search warrant that supported a magistrate judge issuing the warrant for probable cause. We'll see that affidavit at some point, assuming that Bolton gets charged. I'm not sure he will be charged. I differ from others on - those who say that he's certain to be indicted. I think...
INSKEEP: You think this is a nonserious search, then?
COBB: I think it could have been. It certainly is the type of thing that, you know, historically would have been handled by subpoenas and discussions with attorneys. 'Cause keep in mind, this is something that was litigated extensively five years ago.
INSKEEP: Now, I - as I understand it, the White House has denied that they directed the search of John Bolton, but the White House has absolutely asserted the president's authority to direct law enforcement. We just heard the tape. We heard the president's own...
COBB: Sure.
INSKEEP: ...Words. He referred to himself as the chief law enforcement officer in our country. There was a guy who was the acting U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C., for a while, who referred to himself and the people in his office as President Trump's lawyers - not lawyers for the United States, but President Trump. Is it appropriate for a president to be directing investigations?
COBB: So that's an excellent question, and absolutely not. I mean - and, you know, that's the sea change that people are sort of ignoring here. This is no longer a Justice Department, you know, with independent thinkers, you know, acting ethically. This - these people are so totally devoted to Trump and his campaign of vengeance. And, you know, they made that clear when they welcomed him into the Great Hall and Pam Bondi, you know, declared the fealty of the department to the president as opposed to the Constitution, which is actually what their oath is for. Same thing at the FBI. You know, the FBI is being hollowed out. Experienced senior decision-makers, you know, who have years of experience, again, acting ethically without partisan objectives have been removed. They've been replaced by a loyalist. And now they're, you know, gutting the qualifications of the agents, further demeaning the agency, abandoning the college degree requirement. You know, soon it'll be like "Mayberry R.F.D."
INSKEEP: Interesting observation. It used to be - it has been that you have to be highly educated to be in the FBI. I want to ask about the argument that is made here, though. The administration draws a very bold line, and they essentially say the president is elected. Everybody else is not elected. And if they defy the president in any way, they're the deep state. They're extra-constitutional. They're another branch of government - that it's all wrong.
I - when I study this, though, when I listen to people who've worked in the Justice Department and study the history, I realize there's usually actually some ambiguity. Yes, a president is in charge of the Justice Department, but it's often said that an ethical attorney general would refuse to do inappropriate things. I believe that's the position of William Barr, Trump's former attorney general. And when I go back in the 19th century, I find presidents who told prosecutors to do things, and they just said, no. Is that ambiguity supposed to be part of the system, very briefly?
COBB: You know, so - yeah. So the - it shouldn't be ambiguous at all. You know, the loyalty there is supposed to be to the Constitution, not to the president. Historically, you don't have presidents dictating criminal prosecutions. You know, this is a highly unusual thing and part of the authoritarian creep of Trump's narcissism.
INSKEEP: Ty Cobb was special counsel in the first Trump White House. Thanks for joining us this morning, sir. Really appreciate it.
COBB: My pleasure. Take care. Thank you.
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